posted 10-27-2001 01:40 AM            

Use this handy guide to tell the differences between Terrorists and the U.S.
Government:

TERRORISTS:
Supposed leader is the spoiled son of a powerful politician, from extremely wealthy oil family

US GOVERNMENT:
Supposed leader is the spoiled son of a powerful politician, from extremely wealthy oil family

TERRORISTS:
Leader has declared a holy war ('Jihad') against his 'enemies';believes any nation not with him is against him; believes godis on his side, and that any means are justified.

US GOVERNMENT:
Leader has declared a holy war ('Crusade') against his 'enemies';believes any nation not with him is against him; believes god ison his side, and that any means are justified.

TERRORISTS:
Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers

US GOVERNMENT:
Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers

TERRORISTS:
Leadership was not elected by a majority of the people in a free and fair democratic election

US GOVERNMENT:
Leadership was not elected by a majority of the people in a free and fair democratic election

TERRORISTS:
Kills thousands of innocent civilians, some of them children, in cold blooded bombings

US GOVERNMENT:
Kills (tens of) thousands of innocent civilians, some of them children, in cold blooded bombings

TERRORISTS:
Operates through clandestine organization (al Qaeda) with agents in many countries; uses bombing, assassination, other terrorist tactics

US GOVERNMENT:
Operates through clandestine organization (CIA) with agents in many countries; uses bombing, assassination, other terrorist tactics

TERRORISTS:
Using war as pretext to clamp down on dissent and undermine civil liberties

US GOVERNMENT:
Using war as pretext to clamp down on dissent and undermine civil liberties

STOP THE WAR!

posted 10-27-2001 11:47 AM            

but give an alternative too
cuz there has to be a reaction to a terrorist attack

posted 10-27-2001 09:36 PM            

Why are we so hated?

posted 10-28-2001 02:53 AM         

Use this handy guide to tell the difference between Militant Poet and a Homosexual:

Militant Poet:
Loves to act out about issues to get attention.

a Homosexual:
Loves to act out about issues to get attention.

Militant Poet:
Enjoys entertaining people at parties by singing showtunes.

a Homosexual:
Enjoys entertaining people at parties by singing showtunes.

Militant Poet:
Was not allowed to play with G.I. Joes as a child, was instead encouraged to play dress-up with his big sister.

a Homosexual:
Was not allowed to play with G.I. Joes as a child, was instead encouraged to play dress-up with his big sister.

Militant Poet:
Has a degree from UCLA in interior design, but got burned out after three months and took a job bartending at "The Tossed Salad" lounge, where he hogs open-mike night every wednesday from 7-close.

a Homosexual:
Has a degree from UCLA in interior design, but got burned out after three months and took a job bartending at "The Tossed Salad" lounge, where he hogs open-mike night every wednesday from 7-close.

Militant Poet:
Jabbers on constantly about what happened in "Survivor" last night, because he thinks straight people might watch that show too.

a Homosexual:
Jabbers on constantly about what happened in "Survivor" last night, because he thinks straight people might watch that show too.

Militant Poet:
Has a collection of "fun" fruity smelling soaps that he enjoys sticking in unusual places.

a Homosexual:
Has a collection of "fun" fruity smelling soaps that he enjoys sticking in unusual places.

Militant Poet:
Prattles on endlessly about the same subject, even creating new threads in an attempt to draw more people into an argument.

(sorry if I insulted any gay people. The object of my good-natured ribbing was obviously MP. I would hope it was not too traumatic being compared to Militant "Kill Whitey" Poet)

posted 10-29-2001 12:01 AM            

Blood Drinker
It�s nice that u think that u know me so well as to be able to make such a list�.but u don�t slap fag. The list that I posted here is a simple matter of some ironic truths�.read the list and hopefully truth will bring enlightenment.
Is there one point on the list that�s not true?
Read them through.
As far as posting this at such a time as now�.well I would have posted this before�.but fearing for my post�s safety and not having my Militant Poet (the underscored one) banned I decided to wait to speak my opinion. After all I don�t want to be like linux boy and have a completely non-rude pure truth post deleted and be banned tooo. I was banned for saying that the US was attacked for some reason�.as its foreign policy�.and I was so nicely silenced and banned�oh my what a nice thing.

CM, DD, and Gforce
Know something about world events before you talk about what the United States has and has not done world round. Linux, myself in the past have posted about such events and those posts where quickly deleted by you freedom loving, free speech yanks��.wow, wut irony. Oh yes�.listen to Bush�s rant on terrorism�..a Crusade against the terror�.our fight against terrorism. Sound familiar? I would post a link to a web site for you slap nuts to read�.but I sincerely doubt that you read anything besides comic books, that�s if you can read�.and heck�.you must get all your news info from CNN / NBC / ABC�.wut unbiased stories you get.

BUT THATS NOT THE POINT

Point = war bad

Sub
An alternative?
The Taliban government (who is supported by over 60% of the population of afgan, yet is an unsupported and unwanted government according to the US) said that they would extradite Bin Landen once proof is given. In that case, they would happily extradite Bin Laden to a neutral 3rd party for trial and punishment.

The terrorists view this as a war

so a plan?
1) US provides proof
2) Extradittion to the UN / Hague for trial...heck try him as a war criminal

Of course
The US is so hungry for bloood they will not do the just and rational thing. They go into a foreign country and hunt someone down who they think is responsible. Wut ever happend to that nice american notion Guilty Until Proven Innocent. Yes Bin Laden is not american, so should not get this right....but US tries to enforce their beliefs and notions world round....so following that logic...he should be entitled to them ;-)

posted 10-29-2001 02:39 PM            

after reading MPs post a bit more, i say this, shut the fuck up, get off ur damm computer, and go get hit by a fucking bomb, what u have been typing lookes like u are a terrorist yourself saying USA goverment is horrible and is declaring holy wars u fucking moronic fool, goto history class

posted 10-29-2001 04:44 PM            

CM
I never said anything about freedom as in relation to my opinion of it. I simply referred to the fact, Americans believe in such a thing as free speech....yet when it is something that they do not agree with they like to censor it. Thats all I am saying.

Case and Point --> Linux posted a post detailing an American bombing of Saudi Arabi, a anti-biotic plant to be exact. Thousands where killed in the unprovoked bombing. Yet this post was immediately deleted. Thats all I am saying....Ironic....yet people on the same thread talked about murdering Muslim's, Afgan's. Very nice.

And CM....the Taliban is a supported government. The Northern Alliance is supported by 35 - 40% of the population of Afgan. Every single Middle East analyst has specified this. So pay a little more attention.

DD
Again you show your true colours. Guess what I do not sit infront of my computer 24 7. Why would anyone with a sane life do that? As far as education.......i am a 4th years honours science student and when I was in High School I was highly involved in the whole political thing.....but now just don't have the time, with exam's, lab's , essay's, assignments.

Anyways, back to my point.
Take a look at your history and what goes around the world right now. Its US foreign policty that is the problem. Look at the problems caused by the US in Chile and Cambodia. A group of American reporters talked about arresting former head of state Henry Kissinger on War Crimes...and by all accounts he would be found guilty...and they where arrested by The FBI.

Maybe you should not take every piece of spoon fed material you get in your grade 11 history class.

Slyth
Blair is a great leader. But once again, not punishing the terrorists....we are punishing the people of Afgan. On the first day of bombing 30 people where killed, civilians. I have not kept up with the events, cuz of mid terms....but I am sure that total has risen.

Finally,
I am not saying don't punish the terrorists, but as some people have already said....Osama is probably long gone. I would suspect he is in asia, or maybe even Pakistan.

The US most likely knows this, but they are continuing with the bombings. Funny thing really, all they are trying to do is restore the people's faith in their government....by bombing the hell out of Afgan, they do this to some extent.

As far as the Antrax, those are american's doing it for sure.....some sick SOB's they are. And as far as losing someone at the WTC, I did not lose anyone......but I have lost family in the bombing of Yugoslavia by the US....I am sure my uncles Cafe was a chief military target.

I did not write the above statement, it was taken from an email I recieve which was take out of a column sent to Unicef paper. I found it funny, and inciteful, because all the paralell's are true.

And my whole point was war is bad.
We are not punishing Osama, we are punishing the innocent people of Afgan. Guess what, muslim's are no different than you or I. There are many muslim's in Asia, Europe, North America.

And Osam will never be tried, he will be executed....with all that proof that the US government has.........ooooo ....was I being sarcastic.?

posted 10-30-2001 08:42 PM            

In one of his first of many vacuous speeches made to the American people, President Bush's press writer stated that America is now at war with terrorism.
I don't understand that at all.

Terrorism isn't a country. There's no person or army called Terrorism that you can "hunt down and punish". Terrorism is an act. It's an event. How do you declare war on an event? That'd be like the mayor of San Francisco declaring war on Earthquakes.

Everyone agrees this is wrong. There's no disputing that. But of all the news I've been watching, of all the "facts" reported, of all the pundits spinning scenarios, of all the "experts" quizzed and analysts giving expertise and eyewitness accounts and hours and hours and hours of looping footage about the consequences of such a tragedy, there was really only one thing I saw that resonated with me at all. A passerby on the street, when asked to give his thoughts by a news team, commented:

"Why do they hate us so much?"

Heh. And when that question can be truthfully and honestly answered by the American government to an unwitting American public, then we might finally be getting somewhere as a decent society. Because when your foreign policy involves smashing missiles into Palestinian homes and funding Labanese militia who slaughter refugee camps and training terrorist corps to fight for your side of the Cold War, you tend to collect enemies fairly easily.

"Why do they hate us so much?"

Despite what sugar-coated meaningless statements might suggest, freedom is not under attack. Democracy is not in danger. People in general are nice people. If you do nothing they'll have no reason to hate you. They hate you because of something you've done to them (most likely indirectly). And when they make desperate, suicidal strikes at you like this, the worst possible thing you can do is strike back. That's only going to escalate their hatred. Instead, try and understand why they hate you. Talk to them. Try to reach a compromise with them that will make both parties happy, and alleviate the hatred like pressure from a valve.

But doing that, of course, in the eyes of a multi-billion dollar military industrial complex, is admitting that they're right and you're wrong. And when they've just taken out the hub of capitalism, that's hard to do.

credit to my friend Ish www.ishkur.com

posted 10-31-2001 10:37 AM            

I won't even get started on this whole topic but let me clear something up for ppl.

They (Which is Osama's Organization of Terrorists) hate us because we have an alliance with Israel (Enemy of the Taliban).
All of this shit about the U.S. destroying homes, killing citizens of Arab nations is all BULLSHIT, there have been NO military attacks BY (and I stress this) the U.S. before the Sept. 11 attacks started. Those attacks were staged by Israel against the Taliban and Northern Alliance Military.

MP your entire post was influenced by your criticism, and dislike of the U.S. Gov because of the loss of your love ones, Well excuse me if I feel the same way u feel after losing 20+ Family and Freidns to their dumb ass Radical (Yes it was Radical) attacks on the WTC.

Do Not Even attempt to disprove this because this info came directly from the Secretary Executive of Associated Press (Leading News Company of the US) who had spoken to Bush about this. That person is my Mother

posted 10-31-2001 12:56 PM            

If you did quote me.
But you know you did not
ALL THOUGH YOU CAN'T DENY OTHER US BOMBING.

Read before you open that big mouth of yours.
All I have said that you are attacking civilians now. Not saying the US is trying too...but they are none the less. There are civilian casualties. There where 20 civilian casualties on the first day of the bombings, when bombs hit 7 homes near the airport.

I have always said its the US's foreign policy that cause's world problems.

As far as the US bombing civilian targets, they do. I never said in Afgan, but in Iraq and Saudi Arabia are examples.

All you people like to mesh to seperate issues into one. I never said US bombed Afgan before Sept. 11......so open your eyes up.

I have said that the US bombing now, has caused civilian casualties, and in Afgan now.

There is a reason why the US is so hated.

Cambodia
Chile
Grenada
Saudi Arabia
Iran
Iraq
Vietnam

are just a few places where US foreign policy have resulted in the deaths of not 5400, but a lot more, try in the millions.

Kissinger should be indicted on war crimes......how many Cambodians civilians died? How many Viatnamese? How many Chileans ?
other nominee's

George Bush Sr.
Ronald Reagan

to name 2.

Guess what, I did not pick these names out. A criminal lawyer from the UN made a little list for an article, there where over 25 names of american leaders and political figures. Has 1 american leader ever been put on trial?

How many Palestinians die each day as American made missles slam in their home's with the silent approval of the american state.

I don't hate America, ever hear me say that?
I dislike the insitution of your government. Anyone even slightly involved in politics, will tell you its all American Foreign policy that causes anti - american sentiment.

Have you ever been outside the US, not many people like Americans.

The US does not always directly kill all these civilians, but they support toletarian goverments that do. 70,000 missing in Chile, presumed dead, all are regular people with families who did not support the government in control stamped with American approval. Check out Amnesty international friend.

Why do you think most people in the middle east view Osama as a "rambo" type figure, a rebel with a just cause?

AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY

posted 10-31-2001 02:09 PM            

Amerikans solely hate the terrorists, and try their best to evade civillian targets, that fact alone makes them the good guys.

Terrorists (Taliban + Al Quaida) can have their opinion about America, they can say "it's wrong what you're doing", but NOTHING gives them the FUCKING right to kill 6000 innocent people!!

posted 10-31-2001 03:01 PM            

TALIBAN = Government.

Not a Terrorist network. Yes they do harbour and support a terrorist organization but so do countless number of other governments world round. Is it as much support as it "just not caring".

Remember the USA is the largerst source for monetary support of the IRA, does this mean that the US supports this terrorist organization?

Guess what Al Qaeda is not the Taliban governmnet. Please get the facts straight.

As far as bombings, US has suffered 6000, there are over 1.5 million refugees. Wow those numbers are so proportional.

But that again is not the point.

I never said the Taliban was a just / sound / reasonable government, but we have no right to interfere with their sovreign domestic affairs.

If it was China or Russia, everything would have been done with negotiation. But Afgan, does not have the military capabilities to fight back hence the Imperialistic US government does what it wants.

Nothing else is new. Thats the problem with only having one world super power.

posted 10-31-2001 03:33 PM            

Mp i don't even kno where to start because ur stupidity is so overwhelming..Where do u live??

U've never said u hate the USA but u've made it pretty damn clear that u have a hatred for us..

WE don't try to kill/injur the Afghanis the Taliban lies outs its ass...Do u believe what they say? U cannot Believe somethin Unless u see it nowadays..We drop Food to the refugees does that seem mean? When have we done somethin Mean When we did not warn them or they're earned to be dealt harshly with?

For example take Germany as an example and they bombed some1 else..i bet u wouldn't care about that..

IF the americans did shit about this and said Oh gee don't do that again or we'll hurt u..Then we'll get crapped on and the next time a major country attacks us..we'll get pounded..But if we take action we can serve these people justice and get these people outta the world..

ur a fuc*ed up kid mp..

g

posted 11-01-2001 12:17 AM            

The repugnant viral nature of the american way is what the nation of Islam is against... come to think of it if i had the ability or chance i'd be taking out the heads of american state my damn self.

G*D F*CK AMERICA

posted 11-01-2001 12:20 AM            

The repugnant viral nature of the american way is what the nation of Islam is against... come to think of it if i had the ability or chance i'd be taking out the heads of american state my damn self.

G*D F*CK AMERICA

posted 11-01-2001 01:10 AM            

Can you guess what the answer was?

G-Force
Do you think that war is a nice and precise thing, with no civilian casualties? Guess what it is not, and now more than ever. In the mast, wars where often fought in far off battle fields, betweem soldiers. Now we have the technology to wage war without seeing our victims face.

I guess thats fine with you, it does not sit well with most people who realize this simple fact and have a moral compass that fall's over more than what happens in their preverbial backyard.

CM
The US had World Public Opinion squarely behind it. They should have negotiated, and got Bin Laden that way, or at least tried that first before starting the bombing. At least give the notion that you want peace and not war. Well slaughter.

But the US went in with bombs and guns blazing, that wonderful gung ho attitude of shoot first and sort them out after.

And as you can see, world opinion is swinging against the US, at least of regular everyday people. Although world leaders, in this anti-terrorist coallition are still firmly behind the bombing. One example, I just read an article saying that over 60% of Britons want a stop to the bombing, while Prime Minister Blair says this is unacceptable. I have been to a anti-war rally myself last week at my university, and I know there are more scheduled at Ryerson and U of T, two other universities in the city.

I know you can agree with me, that Osama Bin Laden is most likely not in Afgan. He has the money and influence to be in a dozen different countries, after all he is extremely wealthy. He is probably in Switzerland right now enjoying some coco by the fire place.

So what does this bombing of Afgan do? Nothing accept make american's feel better, more secure, and to let the America Ego heal itself. Unfortunately my country is taking part in this anti-terrorist coallition and I do not feel comfortable on a moral level in bombing a nation because one of its citizens / habitants is a terrorist.

All my point is that the US jumped right to bombing.

At every stage where the Taliban tried to negotiate the US said give us Osama or else. Unfortunately we see the results.

CM,
do you remeber when the Taliban offered to hand over Osama if there would be proof given. The US's answer......NO......GIVE HIM TO US.

Do you remeber when they offered to hand him over for trial to a 3rd neutral party. What was the US's answer......NO....with no room for negotiation.

The US is head hunting as you can see. None of us know if OSAMA is innocent or guilty, and in a nation where innocent is assumed until proven otherwise, its a bit hypocritical to assume OSAM is guilty.

Eg. If you have criminal friends and where a formal criminal, and your friends killed 35 people.....but you where not there...the 'state' would question you, not execute you on the spot.

But, why is it different here?
1)Is it the 5400 that perished in such a needless act? -----Possibly
2) Is it something else as in cultural difference? -----Highly Likely

Especially in a culture where racism is still a great problem, a place where their is no segregation in a legal context, yet still exists because of cultural upbringing. A culture where tolerance is giving a backseat, while violence is prioritized.

To conclude
1) War is bad
2) Bombing Afgan does not get you Osama
3) US foreign policy needs to be altered, and as american citizens you all have the ability to alter that policy. Become aware of what your government does.
4)War is Bad
5)War is Bad
6)As leaders fight for power, political prestige, and idealogies the innocent get caught in the middle. ie. WTC victims, Afgan refugees.

Oh yes,
I am firmly against globalism, a one world government, the IMF etc. So no one world government for me CM.

MP

posted 11-01-2001 03:10 AM            

You say you aren't "for" the Taliban, and you seem totally "against" America, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you haven't actually brought any valid arguements till now.

You say America has no right in interfering with the Taliban regime, well the fact that citizens of their country just CRASHED THE SHIT outta 3 (attempted 4 or maybe even 5) of their buildings is for MOST countries a trigger to whipe out the complete state. Think about that, think about what the US COULD have done, they could either say "let's kiss and make up, please don't do it again, or you are not sweet" or they could commence some whoopass bombing, tearing the WHOLE country down. (I'm sure a lot of you have seen the "Lake America" picture)

Dropping bombs on military targets and dropping food supplies in civilian areas seems the best solution IMO.

And FYI, America indeed wanted the un-negotiatable extradition (sp?) of Bin Laden, for a) leading a criminal organisation b) masterminding mass murder operations (Don't attack me if I don't know the correct English terms) and don't get me started about your racism mentioned. --> "An American or Israelian citizen is a legal target to kill" All valid reasons IMO.

-TPS